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Brexit - A question...
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thad
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:57 pm    Post subject: Brexit - A question... Reply with quote

As the result of an advisory referendum that asked one simple question, whether to stay or leave the European Union... the British public have given their decision and there will now be a series of convoluted negotiations prior to the UK leaving the EU.

However....

How can those who wanted & campaigned for the UK to leave, in order to establish itself as “an independent sovereign nation” again...

...be the very same people.. who appear to also want exit terms to be a privately transacted deal solely undertaken behind closed doors in... er... Brussels... and not presented before the UK sovereign Parliament...?

scratch
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many questions surrounding the June 23rd vote.

That is good one.

People who wanted sovereignty of Parliament protected object to Parliament getting a vote to decide the future of the UK. Weird.
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Sussex Boy
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should just trigger article 50, close the borders and get out.

If Parliament vote against triggering article 50 there will be violence and blood on the streets.

Its just another way of the re-moaners stalling what they cant believe actually happened.

We voted out......get on with it.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sussex Boy wrote:
We should just trigger article 50, close the borders and get out.

If Parliament vote against triggering article 50 there will be violence and blood on the streets.

Its just another way of the re-moaners stalling what they cant believe actually happened.

That is the media rubbish that has been spouted, pure scaremongering... no-one has spoken about stopping the process, the only issue is to what degree the UK parliament should be involved in it.

Shocked

Sussex Boy wrote:
We voted out......get on with it.

Well yes... only get on with WHAT precisely... so far no-one actually knows...

...if you are happy for all that detail to be decided by talks with the EU executive, without being subject to scrutiny by the UK parliament... then fine...

...only that doesn't really seem to sit comfortably with any of the "sovereignty" arguments that have been presented for a long while now..(?)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm actually in favour of our MPs debating and discussing this whole thing.

That's why we vote them into parliament isn't it??

But it needs to be done sensibly and quickly.

My personal opinion also is that the government shouldnt give away to much details before negotiating our withdraw as it will weaken our position at the table.....most people need to accept this.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sussex Boy wrote:
I'm actually in favour of our MPs debating and discussing this whole thing.

That's why we vote them into parliament isn't it??

But it needs to be done sensibly and quickly.

My personal opinion also is that the government shouldnt give away to much details before negotiating our withdraw as it will weaken our position at the table.....most people need to accept this.

I actually agree with you... although the red line appears to be independent border controls and all parties in the talks already know that.

My point - which I know you understand - is that you cannot cherry-pick the issues where sovereignty matters just to suit an agenda, particularly as it was a key item in the "leave" vote... certain politicians & media organisations have failed to grasp that concept...

...it seems like a fundamental & obvious point to me, but no-one else seems to be making it and sadly it reminds me of the insipid "remain" campaign, where they failed to address any issues head-on and let the other side set the topics for the media to follow..!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just think it's a knee jerk reaction to the idea that it will be debated in parliament. I admit when I first heard the news I was angry and thought it was another way that the liberal left and re-moaners were actually going to get their way!

But I really can't see it being blocked overall......but as I said earlier if by some way triggering 50 is blocked then things will get very ugly very quickly......as I say IF!!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We appear to be in agreement... I trust - hope I'm right - that the referendum result is sacrosanct and I want MPs to avoid the temptation to play political games... like you, I'm a bit cynical on that point.

As I see it, there were two key issues in the "leave" campaign...
- Sovereignty of the UK Parliament
- Independence of border controls relating to the free movement of EU nationals ...
...although the 2nd item became matters of welfare, terrorism, identity & culture.

I simply cannot reconcile how anyone can suggest that you can brush aside the first issue in order to facilitate the second... as it completely flies in the face of what the public voted for.. our parliament is there to ensure checks & balances.

An interesting article on the kneejerk, including this from the brilliantly named "Lord Judge"
Quote:
Lord Judge said the judges who delivered last week's ruling, including his successor as lord chief justice Lord Thomas, carried out their duty and "happened to decide that Parliament was sovereign".

Article 50 is the trigger point required by the EU for a two-year window to agree exit terms, given the referendum was in June, it can hardly be said to have been rushed. Essentially it will all be down to the government to derive a robust process in any event, regardless of whether the legal appeal is successful, but the appeal itself also introduces opportunities for further delay & challenges.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd6V3AWQdHY

Sums it up well i think Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sussex Boy wrote:
Sums it up well i think Cool

Very good Sussex Boy... perceptive, entertaining & surprisingly accurate.

One quirky feature of events since the result... is that scepticism & vagueness towards the EU plus a low-profile contribution to the Remain campaign... is viewed by her own party as a positive asset to our former Home Secretary who went on to become PM... she is not tainted by the failure to engage the Remain vote...

...yet the precise same qualities are used as a big heavy stick to beat up the Shadow Leader, usually from embittered factions within the ranks of his own party.

dontknow
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
Sussex Boy wrote:
Sums it up well i think Cool

Very good Sussex Boy... perceptive, entertaining & surprisingly accurate.

One quirky feature of events since the result... is that scepticism & vagueness towards the EU plus a low-profile contribution to the Remain campaign... is viewed by her own party as a positive asset to our former Home Secretary who went on to become PM... she is not tainted by the failure to engage the Remain vote...

...yet the precise same qualities are used as a big heavy stick to beat up the Shadow Leader, usually from embittered factions within the ranks of his own party.

dontknow


I almost* felt sorry for Corbyn when he was attacked by his party for not actively supporting the remain campaign, something that he was opposed to (he voted against the EU in 1975).

The result was a half hearted party supporting attempt to support remain that made him look foolish at best.

*Almost, but definitely not.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sussex Boy wrote:
We should just trigger article 50, close the borders and get out.


This is so naïve it's untrue.

Close the borders?

Do you actually mean that?

Used an NHS service recently?

Just trigger Article 50?

Do you mean that?

What will post-EU UK look like?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the NHS full of migrant argument??

Yes I have used the NHS recently. Both even mix if migrants and British people.

Im sorry BICH.....but we should not be relying on migration to fill the NHS.

We have thousands of schoolkids every summer who have nothing to go to. The government need to get these kids into training (just not for the NHS, but other things). We need to start and should be training our own!!!!!

Whats a matter?? Is this another example of a left wing pro democracy person who cant take it when it goes against them???? Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sussex Boy wrote:
Is the NHS full of migrant argument??

Yes I have used the NHS recently. Both even mix if migrants and British people.

Im sorry BICH.....but we should not be relying on migration to fill the NHS.

We have thousands of schoolkids every summer who have nothing to go to. The government need to get these kids into training (just not for the NHS, but other things). We need to start and should be training our own!!!!!


It's just a shame that (I'm advised by my son who is applying to undertake a particular healthcare degree next year) the NHS bursaries have been withdrawn this year in the words of Jeremy Hunt "to encourage more students to study these subjects".

Spot the irony.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sussex Boy wrote:
Is the NHS full of migrant argument??

Yes I have used the NHS recently. Both even mix if migrants and British people.

Im sorry BICH.....but we should not be relying on migration to fill the NHS.

We have thousands of schoolkids every summer who have nothing to go to. The government need to get these kids into training (just not for the NHS, but other things). We need to start and should be training our own!!!!!

Whats a matter?? Is this another example of a left wing pro democracy person who cant take it when it goes against them???? Rolling Eyes


Complete fantasy land, Sussex Boy.

By your own admission, it's an even mix of British and migrant workers in the NHS.

So, let's "close the borders" and cut off 50% of the NHS's recruitment stream? Fantastic!

And even if we did start "training our own" and we start this right now, it takes seven years to train a doctor. What do we do when there's seven year gap and we've "closed our borders" and 50% of the vacancies go unfilled?

Another angry-shouty man spouting random stuff without having thought it through.
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