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EU Referendum
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nemo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
I understand the sentiment of the Parliamentary Labour Party... they are in the business of trying to win a majority in a general election... but cannot understand their timing... if your enemy is fighting among itself, don't you stand on the sideline and let them take the headlines... why add to the chaos now...?

scratch

Maybe because they're expecting a general election sooner rather than later once the Tories elect a leader and know they won't win it with Corbyn - just maybe?!?
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nemo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So with Scotland, London, Gibraltar and sections of Northern Ireland agitating to stay in the EU - what price a Federated UK and where does that leave our precious sovereignty?!....and with EU threatening to play hard ball on the free market I guess we'll find out how strong our sovereignty really is against the machinations of the EU.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
thad wrote:
I understand the sentiment of the Parliamentary Labour Party... they are in the business of trying to win a majority in a general election... but cannot understand their timing... if your enemy is fighting among itself, don't you stand on the sideline and let them take the headlines... why add to the chaos now...?

scratch

Maybe because they're expecting a general election sooner rather than later once the Tories elect a leader and know they won't win it with Corbyn - just maybe?!?

I understand that, but still feel they stole the negative headlines of party rifts from their opponents, when it would have benefited them and their election aspirations to have waited a little while... and maybe be a bit more discreet in their putsch activities...

...not least cos they have now given the Corbynites at grassroots level, an opportunity & legitimate reason to de-select the incumbents in good time.

In any case, with the level of uncertainty around & EU negotiations due, it might be a very good election for them to lose...! They already have the right man in place to do that... and after that a white knight with appeal to all factions can step forward.
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thad
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
So with Scotland, London, Gibraltar and sections of Northern Ireland agitating to stay in the EU - what price a Federated UK and where does that leave our precious sovereignty?!....and with EU threatening to play hard ball on the free market I guess we'll find out how strong our sovereignty really is against the machinations of the EU.

Scotland are very ready to sign a pact with Iceland..! Laughing
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nemo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
nemo wrote:
thad wrote:
I understand the sentiment of the Parliamentary Labour Party... they are in the business of trying to win a majority in a general election... but cannot understand their timing... if your enemy is fighting among itself, don't you stand on the sideline and let them take the headlines... why add to the chaos now...?

scratch

Maybe because they're expecting a general election sooner rather than later once the Tories elect a leader and know they won't win it with Corbyn - just maybe?!?

I understand that, but still feel they stole the negative headlines of party rifts from their opponents, when it would have benefited them and their election aspirations to have waited a little while... and maybe be a bit more discreet in their putsch activities...

...not least cos they have now given the Corbynites at grassroots level, an opportunity & legitimate reason to de-select the incumbents in good time.

In any case, with the level of uncertainty around & EU negotiations due, it might be a very good election for them to lose...! They already have the right man in place to do that... and after that a white knight with appeal to all factions can step forward.

People have short memories - get the *beep* out of the way ASAP. Labour will probably know their leader well before the Tories and then they'll have longer to prepare. As to not wanting to be the next government that wouldn't come into their thinking - Labour needs to make itself electable. The biggest disaster for them will be if Jezza wins reselection Smile
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thad
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
People have short memories - get the *beep* out of the way ASAP. Labour will probably know their leader well before the Tories and then they'll have longer to prepare. As to not wanting to be the next government that wouldn't come into their thinking - Labour needs to make itself electable. The biggest disaster for them will be if Jezza wins reselection Smile

Agree that Labour needs to make themselves re-electable, if only to ensure a strong opposition which is always a good thing whoever is in government. But disagree on the political wisdom of starting that process now. Why risk exposing a credible candidate to a toxic situation that can only damage them..?

It's immediate priority is to fix the disconnect between the political wing who have lost confidence (if it ever existed) in their leader and the grassroots who not that long ago elected him with a strong majority... something they appear to have a very short memory about. How will the rank & file react if their choice is deposed by a Westminster elite... dunno... but it doesn't sound like a formula for unity.

ANY government will struggle to deliver on the mandate from the referendum - in fact there isn't one, as it only ever had "advisory" status - but how can Labour, irrelevant of how they do in an election, have any credibility whatsoever with the nation or in Europe to undertake the task, given their stance on the issue..?

dontknow

Let Corbyn PROVE he is un-electable and an ineffective leader at a general election and then the party will be forced to make choices as a party, not as two factions with little common ground, any rushed solution will be a sticking plaster when amputation is required.
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nemo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
nemo wrote:
People have short memories - get the *beep* out of the way ASAP. Labour will probably know their leader well before the Tories and then they'll have longer to prepare. As to not wanting to be the next government that wouldn't come into their thinking - Labour needs to make itself electable. The biggest disaster for them will be if Jezza wins reselection Smile

Agree that Labour needs to make themselves re-electable, if only to ensure a strong opposition which is always a good thing whoever is in government. But disagree on the political wisdom of starting that process now. Why risk exposing a credible candidate to a toxic situation that can only damage them..?

It's immediate priority is to fix the disconnect between the political wing who have lost confidence (if it ever existed) in their leader and the grassroots who not that long ago elected him with a strong majority... something they appear to have a very short memory about. How will the rank & file react if their choice is deposed by a Westminster elite... dunno... but it doesn't sound like a formula for unity.

ANY government will struggle to deliver on the mandate from the referendum - in fact there isn't one, as it only ever had "advisory" status - but how can Labour, irrelevant of how they do in an election, have any credibility whatsoever with the nation or in Europe to undertake the task, given their stance on the issue..?

dontknow

Let Corbyn PROVE he is un-electable and an ineffective leader at a general election and then the party will be forced to make choices as a party, not as two factions with little common ground, any rushed solution will be a sticking plaster when amputation is required.

I don't think letting Corbyn prove he is un-electable was ever really on the table but certainly not now when he's gone some way to proving what an ineffectual leader he really is (sad to be honest as he does actually appear to have some conviction in what he is doing rather than the more typical career politicians de jour).

If the following link is to be believed then the referendum is just being used as a convenient trigger point to toppling Jezza.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/0.....exclusive/

Might explain why Labour would take the risk of 'exposing a credible candidate to a toxic situation'. Then again they probably just see that whilst there are clear challenges in what lies ahead there are potentially also significant opportunities...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
If the following link is to be believed then the referendum is just being used as a convenient trigger point to toppling Jezza.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/0.....exclusive/

Almost certainly looks like a contrived excuse, which might not play well with the people who stand on doorsteps when an election is announced and might even lead to wholesale de-selections. Labour are likely to get a pounding about abuse of office in the forthcoming Chilcott Report too, the combination can only heighten tensions with the Westminster clique.

I agree it was going to happen sometime, but seriously question why now...? the headlines should all be about divisions within the Conservatives and SNP backroom deals, but they have been completely let off the hook..!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
Labour are likely to get a pounding about abuse of office in the forthcoming Chilcott Report too, the combination can only heighten tensions with the Westminster clique.

Yep Chilcott wrankles actually as that needs not to be swept under the carpet...certainly whats currently going on could detract from the conclusions of the report once its finally published - as its imminent its 'good timing' to be pulling the trigger on Corbyn now?!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
thad wrote:
Labour are likely to get a pounding about abuse of office in the forthcoming Chilcott Report too, the combination can only heighten tensions with the Westminster clique.

Yep Chilcott wrankles actually as that needs not to be swept under the carpet...certainly whats currently going on could detract from the conclusions of the report once its finally published - as its imminent its 'good timing' to be pulling the trigger on Corbyn now?!

Yet he is the living embodiment of how the party has moved on from those undemocratic days of President Blair, when power & control was the preserve of an elite media savvy cabal in Westminster... which arrogantly ignored the views of their own party rank & file ...

...with the likes of Jezza even joining the Stop the War movement..!

Shocked

As you say... people have short memories...

I'd feel a lot more sympathy for the MPs if they had genuinely tried to make it work, the likes of Caroline Flint have spent the last year undermining him and then she tells us he is an ineffective leader... and not a charismatic figurehead in the European campaign like.. er... Gordon Brown... er... Alan Johnson.. er... Tony Blair... er... Ed Miliband... er... David Cameron... er... George Osbourne... it's a long and dull list of non-personalities.

I have a clearer idea of what Jezza stands for than what the Labour party and it's MPs stand for, apart from re-election... neither have policies but Jezza appears to have values. I cannot say the same for the Westminster faction... they want to return to the days of soundbiters in suits with policies determined on the hoof...?

And shouldn't the process be that you determine your values, turn them into practical policies... and THEN elect a leader who can promote it to the public..!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
People have short memories - get the *beep* out of the way ASAP. Labour will probably know their leader well before the Tories and then they'll have longer to prepare.

nemo... maybe you need to explain the concept of ASAP to some of the people in the Parliamentary Labour Party...? it's death by inertia for all sides at present.

scratch

Of course, a cynic might suspect it could all just be a Blair orchestrated tactic to draw attention from Chilcott.. at least it explains the timing & why it has been deliberately dragged out..(?)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nemo wrote:
thad wrote:
nemo wrote:
People have short memories - get the *beep* out of the way ASAP. Labour will probably know their leader well before the Tories and then they'll have longer to prepare. As to not wanting to be the next government that wouldn't come into their thinking - Labour needs to make itself electable. The biggest disaster for them will be if Jezza wins reselection Smile

Agree that Labour needs to make themselves re-electable, if only to ensure a strong opposition which is always a good thing whoever is in government. But disagree on the political wisdom of starting that process now. Why risk exposing a credible candidate to a toxic situation that can only damage them..?

It's immediate priority is to fix the disconnect between the political wing who have lost confidence (if it ever existed) in their leader and the grassroots who not that long ago elected him with a strong majority... something they appear to have a very short memory about. How will the rank & file react if their choice is deposed by a Westminster elite... dunno... but it doesn't sound like a formula for unity.

ANY government will struggle to deliver on the mandate from the referendum - in fact there isn't one, as it only ever had "advisory" status - but how can Labour, irrelevant of how they do in an election, have any credibility whatsoever with the nation or in Europe to undertake the task, given their stance on the issue..?

dontknow

Let Corbyn PROVE he is un-electable and an ineffective leader at a general election and then the party will be forced to make choices as a party, not as two factions with little common ground, any rushed solution will be a sticking plaster when amputation is required.

I don't think letting Corbyn prove he is un-electable was ever really on the table but certainly not now when he's gone some way to proving what an ineffectual leader he really is (sad to be honest as he does actually appear to have some conviction in what he is doing rather than the more typical career politicians de jour).

If the following link is to be believed then the referendum is just being used as a convenient trigger point to toppling Jezza.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/0.....exclusive/

Might explain why Labour would take the risk of 'exposing a credible candidate to a toxic situation'. Then again they probably just see that whilst there are clear challenges in what lies ahead there are potentially also significant opportunities...


Rather than just repeat like a mantra that Corbyn is unelectable can someone point a by-election or mayoral election that Labour has lost since he became elected leader?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josefk wrote:
Rather than just repeat like a mantra that Corbyn is unelectable can someone point a by-election or mayoral election that Labour has lost since he became elected leader?

I'd take it further than that Josef, I'd actually argue that in the EU referendum he managed to - at the very least - retain his appeal to his natural followers... whereas others.... Alan Johnson, Miliband, Brown, Osbourne, Cameron actually lost support from theirs...!

But I don't think he could win a general election simply because he will be demonised & marginalised - not least by factions within his own party - to too great a degree before any issues of policy are even mentioned.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
josefk wrote:
Rather than just repeat like a mantra that Corbyn is unelectable can someone point a by-election or mayoral election that Labour has lost since he became elected leader?

I'd take it further than that Josef, I'd actually argue that in the EU referendum he managed to - at the very least - retain his appeal to his natural followers... whereas others.... Alan Johnson, Miliband, Brown, Osbourne, Cameron actually lost support from theirs...!

But I don't think he could win a general election simply because he will be demonised & marginalised - not least by factions within his own party - to too great a degree before any issues of policy are even mentioned.


He wouldn't win a general election because only a tiny minority of the population want to live under his brand of socialism. Most sane people know that he would completely wreck UK PLC.

The only people that will vote for him are students, bums, anarchists and life's failures who want other peoples hard earned for nothing. He really is the man of the scrounger. 'Labour', as a word, indicates work. He should change the name of his party. The benefits party would be most appropriate.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem that Corbyn had was having to support a party line that was diametrically opposite to his personal views.

He managed this by saying absolutely nothing for as long as possible, then waffling when pushed into a corner.

Finally sacking the bloke criticising him made him look vindictive. This however worked as the other dissenting voices in the shadow cabinet voluntarily left. However we are now left with a shadow cabinet made up of wet behind the ears yes men (and women).
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