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EU Referendum
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Born in Crawley Hospital
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:37 pm    Post subject: EU Referendum Reply with quote

Democracy is a beautiful thing. But are the UK public really qualified to make this decision?

I'd like to think I'm fairly up-to-date with politics but I'd be lying if I said I understood all the nuances of the EU referendum.

I fear it may boil down to immigration and xenophobia.

Personally I'd like to stay in and I will certainly vote that was. My reasoning is that the Out campaign are making us for fools if they're trying to convince us we'd get the result by the Friday and be out by the Monday. It just wouldn't work that way. It would be literally a generation of negotiations which would simply be a waste of time and money. I also think it's better to be inside ******* out than outside ******* in. I also think David Cameron is trying to play us for fools if he thinks his new deal makes any different whatsoever.

It's going to be close but I think - and definitely hope - we'll stay in.
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ant
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we ever truly qualified? I know people who vote because he looks nice, she helped me etc etc.

I know a long time Tory voter who cannot stand that *beep* Cameron but insists they aren't voting for him but that nice Henry Smith. I could use anyone as an example left or right.

You have made a decision that suits you - good on you. But you admit to not understanding all the nuances. So you've gone with a bit of gut instinct.

I refuse to condemn everything the government do - yet I could never bring myself to vote for them. It's why I quite liked coalition politics, you often tended to get rid of the worst excesses of both parties

I used to be around student politics - my returning officer said to me a long time ago, the winner of this election will be the least undesirable candidate to most people - rather than the most popular.

I feel his words burning into me as we head towards the EU referendum
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Jim Baker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look at history and see countless occasions where groups of people have been turned into one country and a couple of hundred years (or less) later they have a civil war and split up.

The stated aim of the EU is ever closer union. To me that means many groups of people will become one country. Doesn't bode well.

Many things about the EU I'm for. Freedom of travel/migration, freedom to work, freedom from tariffs (some one should mention this one to our government).

One thing I'm against is a person from another country becoming an MP here, or vice versa. In an ideal world an MP should represent the constituency they live in. I recognise that is not always possible but to parachute some one in from another country takes it too far.

A former govt. minister recommended that everyone should vote to leave because then the EU ministers will give serious concessions before we would have to vote again but this time vote to remain. A similar thing happened in Ireland and Denmark.

I will vote to leave. Not because I'm anti European or a little Englander but because I believe we (as people) would be better off outside. I just feel the whole thing is too large and too unwieldy to ever be successful.

Jim Baker

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: EU Referendum Reply with quote

Born in Crawley Hospital wrote:
I'd like to think I'm fairly up-to-date with politics but I'd be lying if I said I understood all the nuances of the EU referendum.

Part of that problem is mis-information... one example would be the bad press the European court of Human Rights gets, cos it only gets reported when they make a judgement against us... and in any case it is part of an entirely separate treaty with no connection to the EU... but the perception is always that it is "Europe telling us what to do".

In terms of waste, cost & ineffectiveness, I have FAR more issue with the United Nations... Yet no-one is saying that we should leave it... and yes, I can understand why.. the alternatives are risky.

And there is definitely a very credible argument - on many levels - that we should immediately leave "legalised gangster" organisations such as FIFA & the IOC... yet no-one is making that case either.. and we certainly won't be offered a referendum on it..!
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Ian
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out, for me.

I like my law makers to be accountable to their constituents at the ballot box.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of those strange instances whereby I cannot for the life of me say why I support my view.
I'm a complete Europhile and support the European Union in every way shape and form even to the extent that I wouldn't have a problem with a more federalist tie. Of course there are some very strange quirks that come out but hey, lets embrace them rather than fight them.
Ask me why I have these views? I couldn't tell you. My overriding thoughts are that Europe has been fighting wars against each other for hundreds/thousands of years. Whilst we have his close union, I don't see this happening again.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notso wrote:
My overriding thoughts are that Europe has been fighting wars against each other for hundreds/thousands of years. Whilst we have his close union, I don't see this happening again.

Yesterday there was a media buzz speculating what Lady Thatcher would vote for..?
I thought the answer is obvious... "invasion" Surprised
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Ian
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notso wrote:
This is one of those strange instances whereby I cannot for the life of me say why I support my view.
I'm a complete Europhile and support the European Union in every way shape and form even to the extent that I wouldn't have a problem with a more federalist tie. Of course there are some very strange quirks that come out but hey, lets embrace them rather than fight them.
Ask me why I have these views? I couldn't tell you. My overriding thoughts are that Europe has been fighting wars against each other for hundreds/thousands of years. Whilst we have his close union, I don't see this happening again.


I'd say the opposite Simon. Uniting people against their will will eventually lead to a bloody division (Yugoslavia immediately springs to mind, go back further and look at Ireland - still ongoing as of this week).
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian wrote:
Out, for me.

I like my law makers to be accountable to their constituents at the ballot box.


I don't know you Ian, I can only go by your posts. You're not a na´ve person but this to me is a na´ve position to take.

If we 'leave' it'll be a generation and some before we truly shake our legal ties with Europe.

We have no idea what the alternative is and even UKIP fail to provide that answer when pressed.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A genuine question that perhaps someone will be kind enough to answer, please feel free to point out any wrong assumptions I may have made.

The has been a lot of talk about our PM in negotiation with the EU about amending rules on EU migrants in work... but the issue that actually seems to be the real concern to a section of society is non-EU migrants without work...

scratch

..so, is the proposal that he is putting before Europe designed to bring things into line with UK policy on both groups or has an equivalent not been put before the UK Parliament..?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian wrote:
notso wrote:
This is one of those strange instances whereby I cannot for the life of me say why I support my view.
I'm a complete Europhile and support the European Union in every way shape and form even to the extent that I wouldn't have a problem with a more federalist tie. Of course there are some very strange quirks that come out but hey, lets embrace them rather than fight them.
Ask me why I have these views? I couldn't tell you. My overriding thoughts are that Europe has been fighting wars against each other for hundreds/thousands of years. Whilst we have his close union, I don't see this happening again.


I'd say the opposite Simon. Uniting people against their will will eventually lead to a bloody division (Yugoslavia immediately springs to mind, go back further and look at Ireland - still ongoing as of this week).


Like I say, I haven't a clue why I think the way I do, but I am passionate about Europe. I couldn't for the life of me canvass on the doorstep as I wouldn't be able for form a decent answer to any questions being asked.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian wrote:
Out, for me.

I like my law makers to be accountable to their constituents at the ballot box.


For a change im with you on this Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cakeburner wrote:
Ian wrote:
Out, for me.

I like my law makers to be accountable to their constituents at the ballot box.


For a change im with you on this Cool


There are numerous treaties and organisations that we are signed up to that create some of our laws. The UK does not exist in isolation.

What's next? Leave NATO? Leave the UN? Ignore the Geneva Convention or the European Treaty of Human Rights - which is NOT an EU treaty before you jump on that.

I can't get away from the opinion that most Outers are driven by propaganda that the UK should be for the British and the rest of the world can continue to a fail.

It's 2016 and you can't uninvent the wheel.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Born in Crawley Hospital wrote:
Cakeburner wrote:
Ian wrote:
Out, for me.

I like my law makers to be accountable to their constituents at the ballot box.


For a change im with you on this Cool


There are numerous treaties and organisations that we are signed up to that create some of our laws. The UK does not exist in isolation.

What's next? Leave NATO? Leave the UN? Ignore the Geneva Convention or the European Treaty of Human Rights - which is NOT an EU treaty before you jump on that.

I can't get away from the opinion that most Outers are driven by propaganda that the UK should be for the British and the rest of the world can continue to a fail.

It's 2016 and you can't uninvent the wheel.


And you can't uninvent democracy, which allows the good people of Britain to make up their own minds.
So if Ian and Cakeburner vote 'out' based on the above premise then that's alright with me.
I'll probably be voting to leave as well - and that's my democratic right.
There's a number of reasons for my current way of thinking which I'm not going to tell you as I can't be bothered to spend the next few days going round in circles arguing the toss.
And that's also my democratic right

Savage
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like negative campaigns, fear of leaving doesn't amount to a good enough reason to stay in.... neither are all sorts of other fears a good enough reason to get out...

..but the disappointment so far is the lack of POSITIVE arguments to follow either course...

...part of the problem is that back in the 70's the choice was about joining a trading block of western European christian democracies... rather than an expanded quasi-federation of disparate states and in the interests of democracy there really should have been a referendum somewhere along that route..

scratch

..what I find odd though, is how the people who were keenest to keep the UK together and fully accept the principle of no borders, freedom of movement, etc.. within that domain, are invariably the same ones with the biggest gripe when that same model is applied in continental Europe.. we aren't adopting their values, they are adopting ours..!
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