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Takeover by Middle East investors
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seano
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daryl clare will play for free... Embarassed
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thad
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seano wrote:
Daryl clare will play for free... Embarassed

In fairness, he did play for free... he just didn't know it at the time & thought he'd be paid at the end of the month.... he left the day before the remark was made.. Crying or Very sad

I had a lovely phone chat with him at the time & he told me that the best thing about CTFC was the fans and how the players really appreciated that we wouldn't just stand for it.. and that the club would be in administration in a matter of months..!
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thad
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon wrote:
If PJH had not paid the wages then the wages would not have been paid, exactly as the article says.

Sort of... the article is misleading insofar as it strongly implies that it is an act of benign pragmatism, yet it also includes this line attributed to PJH...
Quote:
...so I will cover it and it can be talked about later.

..which suggests that in whole or part it will be included in either the club liabilities or as part of the sale package...(?)

dontknow

Also... those who believe that the total sale price was 1... take a look at the statement issued by the club, confirming a deposit paid & received from the purchasers:
- how much do you think that deposit was..?
- maybe enough to more than cover a monthly wage bill..?
- or maybe fifty... or even as high as sixty-five PENCE...? Wink
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Simon
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
Simon wrote:
If PJH had not paid the wages then the wages would not have been paid, exactly as the article says.

Sort of... the article is misleading insofar as it strongly implies that it is an act of benign pragmatism, yet it also includes this line attributed to PJH...
Quote:
...so I will cover it and it can be talked about later.

..which suggests that in whole or part it will be included in either the club liabilities or as part of the sale package...(?)


Of course PJH will do his best to look good over it but the reality is without cash the players wouldn't be paid and he wouldn't have a going concern to sell.

And in any case a sale contract like this will often have reps and warranties about their being no overdue creditors which he would not be able to comply with if there were unpaid wages.
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Ian
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon wrote:
No they are not liable. That is complete and utter nonsense.

Under company law directors are not responsible for the debts/liabilities of a limited company unless they have given formal personal guarantees to creditors.


For christs sake, here we go again. Another outbreak of fact and truth on the forum. WHEN WILL IT END? Shocked
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thad
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon wrote:
Of course PJH will do his best to look good over it....

Bloke who is in a position where he has no option but to pay the players wages or jeopardise his commercial interests... pays the bloomin wages....

..it is not a story Simon... it has no public interest or news value... however it does serve to mask the genuine news item in the piece... namely this bombshell:
Quote:
The Football League asked for more documentation on the sale transaction, which meant the takeover would have to be delayed until next week.

THAT is where the focus & attention should be... because it shifts the emphasis for the delay by the football authorities, away from the fit & proper test of the Purchaser... to the need for clarification from the Vendor...! Surprised

Burying bad news... wonder why...?
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Simon
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
Simon wrote:
Of course PJH will do his best to look good over it....

Bloke who is in a position where he has no option but to pay the players wages or jeopardise his commercial interests... pays the bloomin wages....

..it is not a story Simon... it has no public interest or news value... however it does serve to mask the genuine news item in the piece... namely this bombshell:
Quote:
The Football League asked for more documentation on the sale transaction, which meant the takeover would have to be delayed until next week.

THAT is where the focus & attention should be... because it shifts the emphasis for the delay by the football authorities, away from the fit & proper test of the Purchaser... to the need for clarification from the Vendor...! Surprised

Burying bad news... wonder why...?


Of course it has no news value, I was just pointing out the suggestion that he was legally required to do it is nonsense. All he is doing is protecting his own interests and trying to look good into the bargain by getting it into the paper.

I would say there are two stories here.

1. Delay in takeover as the FA have asked for more info, so clearly it isn't a done deal and the buyers advisers have told him not to put any money in yet.

2. Our finances are so tight that without ongoing cash injections we wouldn't be able to pay the wage bill.

As it was also reported that the " European consortium" had withdrawn their interest let's hope there are no further hitches.
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thad
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we essentially agree Simon and I know you have far more knowledge regarding international corporate finance than myself... however...
Simon wrote:
1. Delay in takeover as the FA have asked for more info, so clearly it isn't a done deal and the buyers advisers have told him not to put any money in yet.

...the FA & banks have to satisfy certain requirements regarding probity, excise & money-laundering.. and that statement suggests that they were not entirely satisfied with the information from the Vendor... rather than the Purchaser..(?)

Simon wrote:
2. Our finances are so tight that without ongoing cash injections we wouldn't be able to pay the wage bill.

True - but if the outgoing owners have no budget in place to fund expenditure that becomes an inevitable consequence...?
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Simon
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
Simon wrote:
2. Our finances are so tight that without ongoing cash injections we wouldn't be able to pay the wage bill.

True - but if the outgoing owners have no budget in place to fund expenditure that becomes an inevitable consequence...?


It also illustrates beyond doubt how tight our finances are...

Those armchair experts that like to have a pop at Yates can see now that he really has been shopping in the pound shops. In that sense we have gone well to stay clear of the relegation zone so far.
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Sulton111
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon correct me if I am wrong but you say the directors / owners are not liable for the wages so who is?

It is of course the responsibility of the owners to pay the companies wage bill
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Phil T
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sulton111 wrote:
Simon correct me if I am wrong but you say the directors / owners are not liable for the wages so who is?

It is of course the responsibility of the owners to pay the companies wage bill


Really?

Are you telling us that the shareholders of the company you work for pay your salary out of their pockets?

I think you will find that it is the company that is liable.
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Simon
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sulton111 wrote:
Sorry Simon but once again you are wrong the players are owed the wages and it is the responsibility of the current owners to pay that monies

You say very few would know how to run a football club and it shows you do not know either

If the owners failed to pay the wages the club would / could go into administration and the players could indeed leave but the responsibility still remains with the owners on those acting on their behalf

Good guess though beginning to think you just don't like me 😃



Sulton111 wrote:
Simon correct me if I am wrong but you say the directors / owners are not liable for the wages so who is?

It is of course the responsibility of the owners to pay the companies wage bill



As you changed your post whilst I was in the process of responding I will reply to both versions at the same time. You are completely wrong I'm afraid.

A quick Google will help you become conversant with one of the the basics of company law. That is that a limited company such as Crawley Town Football & Social Club Limited has a separate legal identity to it's owners.

A limited company's directors are not responsible for its debts/liabilities. A limited company's shareholders (owners) are not responsible for it's debts/liabilities either. I make the distinction because in your earlier posts you were talking about the directors were liable, in your subsequent posts you then talk about owners, the two are not the same thing as the club has directors like Michael Dunford who are not shareholders.

It is the club's responsibility to pay the players. If the club runs out of money then there is no requirement for either the shareholders or directors to pay the wages or any other bills or indeed to put a single penny in to the limited company. That's why clubs go bust and leave players out of pocket just like we did in the Majeed era.

Maybe this would be a good starting point for you:

https://www.gov.uk/business-legal-structures/limited-company

I can assure you having worked in business and dealt with companies for more than 30 years, with my name registered at the FCA as an approved individual, I am 100% sure of my ground on this. However you are welcome to check with the likes of Ian and Thad who have also been involved with companies.

I can also assure you it's nothing to do with liking you, just knowing what is and isn't correct. Before you come on here accusing people of not knowing what they are talking about I would suggest doing your own research properly. You probably know the old proverb.....better to stay silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
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thad
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaps - we are quibbling over semantics here... in summary all you need to know is:

- A) PJH is not the "owner" of CTF&SC

- B) It is the responsibility of Directors of a private limited company to ensure that staff & creditors are paid in accordance with any agreed or contractual terms

- C) The liability of shareholders in a private limited company, is limited by guarantee

- D) The company has a duty to trade legally & honour its contractual obligations

- E) The company AND individuals can be taken to court/tribunal over actions & decisions that breach contract or result in staff dismissal
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Simon
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
- B) It is the responsibility of Directors of a private limited company to ensure that staff & creditors are paid in accordance with any agreed or contractual terms


It is the responsibility of the directors to run the company and pay the bills, however where the company has no money to pay the bills the directors themselves have no personal liability to do so.

thad wrote:
- C) The liability of shareholders in a private limited company, is limited by guarantee


Not usually, no. The vast majority (over 90%) of private limited companies are 'limited by shares' and the shareholders only ongoing liability is the face value of any shares issued/owned but not paid for. Companies 'limited by guarantee' are rare and usually only non-profit organisations like charities and community groups. Such companies don't have capital (CTFC isn't one).
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thad
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blimey - I was trying to simplify matters too...

Yes, the football club shareholders are more likely limited by shareholding, than guarantee, but essentially in either case item C mitigates their exposure in item B, which is the key point that we are both trying to get across for the benefit of the Sulton.

However, item E is the cruncher here from Sulton's perspective, individuals may still have to face a level of scrutiny for their role in the events whereby the company became insolvent resulting in breach of employment contracts.

Simon wrote:
Such companies don't have capital (CTFC isn't one).

I'm reliably informed it has a quids worth Wink


Last edited by thad on Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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