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EU Referendum
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Jim Baker
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just can't get away from the prospect of a war in the future.

I know, I know, I know.

But I look at history and see the European powers drawing lines on a map and then look at what happened in Rwanda. Or I see the Russian empire expanding and then taken over by the Soviets and look at what is happening in Chechnia now. Or look at the great hope that was Yugoslavia at the end of the second world war.... So many other examples.

I consol myself with the fact that the EU exports more to the UK than the UK exports to the rest of the EU. I cannot imagine France and Germany starting a trade war when it would be French and German companies that would suffer the most. Ban our insurance agents then we ban French wine and Volkswagon cars.

I do not pretend it will be easy. I do not say there will not be issues to overcome but I honestly believe we will be better off, in the long run, as an independent nation.

I do feel it's all academic though. We will not be allowed to leave. As one of the few net contributors to the EU budget they cannot afford to be without us.

Jim Baker
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Born in Crawley Hospital
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savage wrote:
Born in Crawley Hospital wrote:
Cakeburner wrote:
Ian wrote:
Out, for me.

I like my law makers to be accountable to their constituents at the ballot box.


For a change im with you on this Cool


There are numerous treaties and organisations that we are signed up to that create some of our laws. The UK does not exist in isolation.

What's next? Leave NATO? Leave the UN? Ignore the Geneva Convention or the European Treaty of Human Rights - which is NOT an EU treaty before you jump on that.

I can't get away from the opinion that most Outers are driven by propaganda that the UK should be for the British and the rest of the world can continue to a fail.

It's 2016 and you can't uninvent the wheel.


And you can't uninvent democracy, which allows the good people of Britain to make up their own minds.
So if Ian and Cakeburner vote 'out' based on the above premise then that's alright with me.
I'll probably be voting to leave as well - and that's my democratic right.
There's a number of reasons for my current way of thinking which I'm not going to tell you as I can't be bothered to spend the next few days going round in circles arguing the toss.
And that's also my democratic right

Savage


Of course it is their democratic right to vote which ever way they think and all power to them.

But my point stands, a point that you glossed over, which is the EU is only one organisation we are a member to which influences our laws. There are many other organisations and treaties that we are signatories on that influence our laws. If we follow they logic to its extreme, are we going to have a referendum on the Geneva Convention, for example because it's not a 'British law'?

As European citizens we have reaped the rewards of being part of the EU over the years. I honestly find it astounding that we are even considering leaving.

And point out again, a point I don't mind labouring, that none of the Outers actually know what Out means. Even UKIP don't have a plan. This isn't a fear of being Out On my part but I like to know whet the options are. There are those that think being In costs the UK money. The cost of leaving, if it happens, will run on for a generation on the negotiations have finished.

The EU is not perfect, granted, but sometimes the bigger picture needs to be looked at rather than fighting isolated battles.
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notso
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
I don't like negative campaigns, fear of leaving doesn't amount to a good enough reason to stay in.... neither are all sorts of other fears a good enough reason to get out...

..but the disappointment so far is the lack of POSITIVE arguments to follow either course...


Spot on Thad. We saw that a negative campaign can win an election as per the last general election. I appreciate that this is a referendum and not an election but campaigning will still be in force.

So far each side has given the negatives about each other but haven't so far given the positives of their side.
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weststandwatcher
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find myself undecided at the moment. As the offspring of 2 immigrants to Britain (from Europe) I have always had a 'European' outlook and feel very much at home either here or on mainland Europe.

I am old enough to remember when we first joined the EEC. I was very much in favour. The removal of trade barriers was a positive step for all concerned. As is the way with these things, it started to change, without any further reference to the people of any country. The key change was the Maastricht treaty. That was the foundation stone of what is becoming the Federal States of Europe. Now THAT, I am not in favour of.

The argument that there are other organisations that also 'influence' our laws is not a strong one. It is the EU laws that are widely disliked, not the UN or NATO requirements of membership.

The central problem with the EU is that there are net contributors and net takers. Britain, as one of the 3 largest contributors, will therefore always be financially worse off. We are essentially propping up the economies of countries like Albania. What therefore is our motivation to keep doing this? Where is the benefit? Add to that, the immigration from the poorer countries to our little island and it is hardly surprising that people will question our reasons for retaining membership.

We will still trade with EU Countries. We are not much of a manufacturing powerhouse, but our banking system is. We will still have tourism as a major industry. I doubt we will suffer at all.

As for it taking years to fully disentangle ourselves from the EU. Maybe, that is correct. However, stopping our contributions and re-instigating border controls will resolve most of the issues. It is a sad truth that an organisation as large as the EU in unmanageable and ungovernable.

Having said all that, I still like the idea of close ties with Europe. I just think it is foolhardy for Britain to pay for the rest of Europe.

I think I will wait and see what concessions are made. I have a sneaky feeling they might be enough to swing my vote to one of 'staying in'. The bottom line is that the EU needs us more than we need it and Germany and France (who would have to take up the shortfall in funding) know that.
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Jim Baker
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A vote to stay in will lead to the end of the UK as a sovereign country. The EU will, over time, develop into a sovereign state, probably along the lines of the German federation at the moment.

I do not think there can be any argument over that statement. It is written in the treaty of Rome that the countries involved will strive for "ever closer union".

Now, I actually believe this is a legitimate aim. I do not understand why people in favour of the EU always downplay this. If it is what you believe should happen stand up for it.

My personal view is the nation state is about as large a grouping that people can have a stake within. If it grows too large regional identities will start to fragment from the whole. And before you mention the USA I am hoping this is the exception that proves the rule but I look at things such as the Bear flag of the Californian Republic and worry.

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Ian
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Born in Crawley Hospital wrote:
Ian wrote:
Out, for me.

I like my law makers to be accountable to their constituents at the ballot box.


I don't know you Ian, I can only go by your posts. You're not a nave person but this to me is a nave position to take.

If we 'leave' it'll be a generation and some before we truly shake our legal ties with Europe.

We have no idea what the alternative is and even UKIP fail to provide that answer when pressed.


If we vote to stay in because we don't know what will happen if we leave, then we're just voting to maintain the status quo because of what might happen. Trade agreements will remain in place, because we buy far more from EU countries than we sell them and apart from free trade (the original idea that our parents were sold in 1972) I see absolutely no benefit to being part of an undemocratic superstate.

I might not agree with everything that British Governments do, even when my lot are in charge, but I have the opportunity to tell them that at the ballot box every 5 years.

Just as I will have the opportunity to say thanks and goodbye to the EU. Which is exactly what I will do.
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Ian
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Born in Crawley Hospital wrote:
As European citizens we have reaped the rewards of being part of the EU over the years. I honestly find it astounding that we are even considering leaving.


Sell it to me BICH. Five examples in the space below. Remember they need to be examples that I see as a reward, not you, because it's my ballot paper.
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Phil T
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian wrote:
Born in Crawley Hospital wrote:
As European citizens we have reaped the rewards of being part of the EU over the years. I honestly find it astounding that we are even considering leaving.


Sell it to me BICH. Five examples in the space below. Remember they need to be examples that I see as a reward, not you, because it's my ballot paper.


The rewards, Ian? Are they not obvious?

Higher taxation to cover the exorbitant subsidies we pay to Europe?

Butter mountains to support?

Watching our farmers go bust whilst we support the one man band French farmer?

High immigration for others to get a greater minimum wage as ours is up to three times their own countries? (We have the third highest minimum wage in Europe.)

And the excessive import of BMWs Wink
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thad
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil T wrote:
We have the third highest minimum wage in Europe.

Explain that one to me....?

- The Anti-Europe lobby claim we lose parliamentary independence on these matters, bur we clearly haven't if we have instituted that policy on our shores...?

- The Pro-Europe lobby talk of "harmonisation", which was intended to remove regional anomalies including duties, taxation & matters such as the basic minimum wage... but that clearly hasn't happened either..?

dontknow
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weststandwatcher
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
Phil T wrote:
We have the third highest minimum wage in Europe.

Explain that one to me....?

- The Anti-Europe lobby claim we lose parliamentary independence on these matters, bur we clearly haven't if we have instituted that policy on our shores...?

- The Pro-Europe lobby talk of "harmonisation", which was intended to remove regional anomalies including duties, taxation & matters such as the basic minimum wage... but that clearly hasn't happened either..?

dontknow


The problem with "harmonisation", is that is works down to the lowest level. It benefits the least productive/wealthy countries and does nothing whatsoever for the wealthy. Now, if you are a die hard socialist, that sounds wonderful...in the short term. The problem being that if the wealthy countries are not then making the money they once did, then they are unable to contribute to supporting those less well off. It is completely unsustainable.

The British government understand this simple fact of economics, which is why they didn't join the Euro (thankfully). It is also why they want to be able to control interest rates and taxation. Both of which are methods of controlling the economy.

Once you give up those rights, you are at the mercy of the collective economies of the EU, which is frankly a worrying thought.
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Sussex Boy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will vote to leave
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John The Gas
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out for me.... The sooner the better,too.


JTG
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Ian
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian wrote:
Born in Crawley Hospital wrote:
As European citizens we have reaped the rewards of being part of the EU over the years. I honestly find it astounding that we are even considering leaving.


Sell it to me BICH. Five examples in the space below. Remember they need to be examples that I see as a reward, not you, because it's my ballot paper.


sleepy2
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian wrote:
Ian wrote:
Born in Crawley Hospital wrote:
As European citizens we have reaped the rewards of being part of the EU over the years. I honestly find it astounding that we are even considering leaving.


Sell it to me BICH. Five examples in the space below. Remember they need to be examples that I see as a reward, not you, because it's my ballot paper.


sleepy2


Didn't realise you posted.

Did NF put you to sleep? NF by name, NF by nature.

Anyway, there are more than five and I haven't got time to write an essay on them all. I'm going to go pro rather than anti in my justification as there are many reasons why leaving is bad thing, but I'm going to go with reasons for staying is a good thing: influencing financial decisions as we'll be tired to the EU whether we're in or out, security, the benefits the British have through immigration into Europe, trade, EU arts/manufacturing subsidies.

What are the benefits of leaving. Go positive rather than negative. If you can.
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Ian
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Born in Crawley Hospital wrote:
Ian wrote:
Ian wrote:
Born in Crawley Hospital wrote:
As European citizens we have reaped the rewards of being part of the EU over the years. I honestly find it astounding that we are even considering leaving.


Sell it to me BICH. Five examples in the space below. Remember they need to be examples that I see as a reward, not you, because it's my ballot paper.


sleepy2


Didn't realise you posted.

Did NF put you to sleep? NF by name, NF by nature.

Anyway, there are more than five and I haven't got time to write an essay on them all. I'm going to go pro rather than anti in my justification as there are many reasons why leaving is bad thing, but I'm going to go with reasons for staying is a good thing: influencing financial decisions as we'll be tired to the EU whether we're in or out, security, the benefits the British have through immigration into Europe, trade, EU arts/manufacturing subsidies.

What are the benefits of leaving. Go positive rather than negative. If you can.


So sell it to me. If you want us to stay in then it is in your interests to change the minds of those who will be voting out.

Reality is, you'll struggle to sell me two, let alone five. But I'm still all ears/eyes.

Influencing financial decisions: Explain? We have no influence over the ECB as we are not members of the single currency (and what a success that has been)

Security: Really? I don't believe we've ever relied on Europe for our security, though the reverse has been true on more than one occasion..

Benefits we have of immigration INTO Europe: Any small benefit we have there is far outweighed by the flow in the other direction and I have no desire to move to Europe. You're selling it to ME remember.

Trade: I've already told you that trade is irrelevant. The Germans won't cut off their nose to spite their face.

Subsidies: Far outweighed by our contribution. We could ditch the Eu, maintain the subsidies and still be well in profit.

Not sold yet and I was expecting a better argument to be fair.

NF?
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